I get the sense of wonder and ineffability that you describe, but I’m not sure how you get from your appreciation of the spiritual and the miraculous you experience all around you to the Christian God – as opposed to, say, Buddhism, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism or any other system of faith.

It seems very much like your understanding of the spiritual takes place in terms of what (Christian) writer Northrop Frye calls a sense of the metaphoric – eg: we see a breathtaking mountain and in our awe, time ‘stops’. That metaphorical sense of the eternal being timelessness, rather than simply a really long time that starts when we’re dead… But it seems very much like your attribution of that experience to the frankly psychopathic Yahweh in season 1, and his later, cuddlier fatherly incarnation in season 2 is purely cultural.

Had you been born and grown up in, let’s say, Algeria – chances are you’d still have exactly those beliefs and feelings – but you wouldn’t be a Christian.

I have also seen with my own eyes things that could only be described as miracles. Or magic. Or science that I don’t understand yet. Or coincidence. Depends on how you look at it.

Simply put, human beings are ‘meaning generators’. We look for and impose meaningful connections between unrelated phenomena. We impose narrative where none really exists. We like stories. We understand things through metaphor and causality – and when we can’t find a cause, we tend to say ‘God did it’, which is just to say ‘it was magic’. It completes the picture, gives agency to something, and neatly tidies up the story. We’re great at it.

We’re so good at it, in fact, we go around killing each other rather than run the risk of having to change our minds about it.

In other words – I don’t doubt your experience for one moment. We all have that. Stuff is wonderful and amazing, and we are all connected by an indefinable power that pervades everything. But it’s not supernatural. It’s how we operate. We are creatures of metaphor, poetics, narrative and meaning.

That makes it even more wonderful and amazing. I don’t feel like I need to explain any of that away with a handy ‘Oh, God did it – isn’t he mysterious?’. To me that just sucks the joy, the mystery and the wonder and (most importantly) the discovery out of what is actually an amazing universe all by itself without having to invent fictional characters that simplify it and reduce it to moral instruction for the masses.

I was brought up a Christian which made me understand sometimes more about hypocrisy than religion its self. I was alienated by restricting religion throughout my teenage years because it seemed hollow and without personal experience. A few years and teenage experiences later my once hypothetical faith was to be once again ignited.

I was lucky enough to meet a buch of Christians who were REAL people who were “cool, interesting, creative and intelligent” who loved God. I had no idea that Christians could be so genuine as they have always seemed to be the most ostracised people I’ve ever met.

“religion itself is not for me” Nor me Andrew, nor me. It has caused more pain than good. It is man’s manipulation of teaching which has destroyed the true task that religion set out to achieve. I’m part of a belief that a relationship with a creator God should not be shrunk into the confounding boxes which religion has to offer.

I’m not anti-scripture and belive that a lot, if not all, answers to life can be found in the bible, if read with the right frame of mind. But I would say I am more influenced by faith than the written word. Faith can only exist without proof. Faith can only exist where questions are left unexplained. Having said that faith without experience can seem somewhat hollow. Becoming a Christian of my own choosing is continuing to throw up more questions than answers. But answers have started to arrive in the form of personal, direct experience.

I have been in prayerful/meditative environments where seeing and experiencing the unexplainable has been a massive personal faith builder. My personal walk has taken me into places around the world where I believe I have seen “the hand of God” at work. After a few years of frustratingly searching for such experience to help quantify my faith, I have seen with my own eyes what can only be described as miracles, which I have no other explanation other than divine innovation.

Alongside the standard and well-known Love and forgiveness teaching, the miraculous is where my understanding of Jesus’ teaching has its foundations. Although there are plenty of biblical examples and teaching of healing, I find no watertight theology for it, for example why does God heal this group and not the other, at this time and not at that time. But I am fascinated with the challenge and I aim to deepen my understanding. If Christians focus on such teachings rather than unhelpful self-serving intolerant doctrines then maybe Christianity would be the testimony it was intended to be.

Aggressive views and fundamentalism “ruins everything” (Christopher Hitchens – God is Not Great: How Religion Ruins Everything). Inspiring and harmoniously revealing conversation leading to tolerant understanding and mutual respect Saves everything.

I believe in God because I observe him in everything. I also see him in conversations such as this and even in the disagreements against him. So long live the questions and debate where hopefully we can all explore and discover the fascinating things that the quest for truth may reveal.

“There is an indefinable mysterious power that pervades everything, I feel it though I do not see it. It is this unseen power which makes itself felt and yet defies all proof, because it is so unlike all that I perceive through my senses.”
Mahatma Gandhi

“Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The only thing it cannot be is moderately important.”
C. S. Lewis

Best book I have EVER read, and I’ve read a LOT of books. Also available in audiobook format. Check it.

The two big problems in the conversations seem to be a) the limitations of language (we just don’t have a common frame of reference for the meaning of the words used to describe spiritual, metaphysical and religious thoughts and experiences.) and b) the adversarial nature of the set up – if I’m trying to convince you of anything, the discussion is already a negative sum – someone has to ‘lose’ in order for us to progress beyond entrenchment.

I prefer to a) not spend much time believing that the world would be a better place if people thought the way I do, b) accept that the words someone uses to describe their thoughts and experiences may not mean what I think they mean, c) observe that most of us are, thankfully, inconsistent hypocrites who err on the side of pragmatism when faced with actual situations in which our previously theoretical beliefs are put to the test, and d) I’m more interested in how someone’s world view makes them act than how they describe it. ie, given the absence of emperical verification either way, I’ll judge your beliefs on whether they make you a nicer, more open, welcoming, friendly, supportive, generous, kind person or they make you a judgemental, cynical, nasty, prejudiced arse.

The split seems fairly even on both sides – neither the faith-in-God nor the faith-in-no-God crowd have a monopoly on kindness or fuckwittage :)

As Nye Bevan said “This Is My Truth, Tell Me Yours”. :)

Though often, as with amongst conservatives and liberals, the ratio of those attributes can be quite different…

As someone once put it ‘There’s got to be something in Christianity if it’s managed to survive 2000 years of Christians…’

Good post. I always appreciate hearing other opinions and especially from people who I’ve grown to respect in other aspects of their lives other than their theology (or lack thereof).

In my opinion, the bible isn’t neither a book to live by. Let’s write off the old testament for a start, but the new testament – original sin? What an evil concept.

I don’t believe in religion, but I believe in Bill Hicks:
“Eternal suffering and damnation awaits anyone who questions God’s infinite love”

Did you see Obama’s (oh no, politics and religion!) speech in Cairo recently?

http://friendlyatheist.com/2009/06/05/obamas-cairo-speech/

“And I believe that America holds within her the truth that regardless of race, religion, or station in life, all of us share common aspirations – to live in peace and security; to get an education and to work with dignity; to love our families, our communities, and our God. These things we share. This is the hope of all humanity.”

Huh? We all believe in an invisible man in the sky? ;-)

It’s a bit worrying to see such a speech in IMHO.

You might find this lecture interesting…

http://www.boingboing.net/2009/06/06/evolution-religion-s.html

Marius